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This post has been edited by Lazarus: 24 April 2009 - 10:28 AM
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Diplomacy with the Dead 7.23 (8.6/5.0)
#1
Tyranicus 
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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:32 AM
Diplomacy with the Dead is one of the four scenarios that come by default with BoA and the Editor.
How could you not be madly in love with Tyran? —Andraste
I for one welcome our new glacier overlords. —Arancaytar
I love you. Now eat my semen. —Nikki
I for one welcome our new glacier overlords. —Arancaytar
I love you. Now eat my semen. —Nikki
MultiQuote#2 Unregistered
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:33 AM
Your basic Spiderweb hack-and-haul, with a plot twist that's as unexpected as a thing the Inevitability News Network tells you to really really expect and as consequential as the border between North and South Dakota. Its world is drawn more coherently than others by JV: fewer -- which isn't to say, no -- tract housing developments of assorted monster families living side-by-side in suburban dungeon cul-de-sacs. And there are some eye-catching frills and details here and there. As for combat, I went in underpowered and found things nicely challenging, which may inflate my score a bit. The engine improves on the ported Spidweb scenarios by gesturing toward creature tactics, though it overuses the "hunter" bit. The main problem is one we'll probably have to learn to love: what BoA can't supply by way of balance, it attempts to supply by volume -- overstuffed bosses, floods of anonymous baddies, etc. That, and mines. In a turn-based game. WHY??? Fight Geneforgization!
So I'll call it the mirror image of BoA's ASR: decent game-play, not-so-decent plot.
7.7
So I'll call it the mirror image of BoA's ASR: decent game-play, not-so-decent plot.
7.7
#3 Stareye
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:34 AM
Competent and short scenario. The plot "twist" was extremely predictable and very little in the way of things we have not seen before. A few good ideas for fights especially the teleportation bit in the fight with Vahkos. Overall good but much unused potential. Barely makes my solid adventures table.
8.0
8.0
#4 Terrors Martyr
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:35 AM
Being the designer of Corporeus, I can sorta tell when a designer is trying to insert some sort of conflict or "underlying message" into the scenario, although coming from Jeff, it won't be the greatest- I picked up a "people will fight vigorously to live" message, I'm not sure if other people came to the same conclusion or not. (And let it be said right now that I am docking points for Jeff's using the name "Desirea" to represent "Desire". English 101, children.) On the other hand, it wasn't executed well. I couldn't pick up as many symbols or recurring examples of the subliminal struggles; either of these would have boosted the scenario's score. What made A Small Rebellion work in many ways was the constant examples of brutalities, but any "themes" Jeff may have tried to establish in Diplomacy were poorly established and poorly executed.
Then, we come to the conflict itself. Why was the party given the choice at the crystal anyway? Maynard knew the ritual, so why couldn't he walk up to the crystal and cast it himself?
(EDIT: After a replay (and a vague hint I picked up on the boards), I was able to find out the "dark" side of Maynard. My deduction in this respect still holds, however, on account of how insanely difficult it is to pick this up.)
That aside, gameplay was quite good. With the high HP of the undead and the limiting of magic in BoA, Dispel Undead was a useful way for a spellcaster to use his/her turn, but was not a panacea. Slow speed but high HP embodies the way zombies *should* act. I enjoyed many of the Vahkos fights- radiating cold to do damage twice (an important concept in all Spidweb games) was nice, as was the chasing sequence in general, although being flooded by spectral warriors and avatars was a relative low point. I would have prefered more dialogue pics- especially ones for the two protagonists. Everything "clicked", except for some traps in the Selucia Sewers, which should have "clicked" only once.
Saying "I recommend that you play this scenario" is sorta silly, but if this was a scenario that wasn't pre-packaged with the editor, I'd probably still recommend it to a potential player, even if it isn't the best BoA will ever offer. (And let's not forget how grateful I am that Za-Khazi isn't the scenario all BoA players will finish before moving on to 3rd party ones...!)
7.6
EDIT: In retrospect, this entire scenario seems to be riddled with anti-Communist propaganda. I'd challenge you to find the bits and pieces, but that's like asking you play Where's Waldo when there's only one man on the page.
Then, we come to the conflict itself. Why was the party given the choice at the crystal anyway? Maynard knew the ritual, so why couldn't he walk up to the crystal and cast it himself?
(EDIT: After a replay (and a vague hint I picked up on the boards), I was able to find out the "dark" side of Maynard. My deduction in this respect still holds, however, on account of how insanely difficult it is to pick this up.)
That aside, gameplay was quite good. With the high HP of the undead and the limiting of magic in BoA, Dispel Undead was a useful way for a spellcaster to use his/her turn, but was not a panacea. Slow speed but high HP embodies the way zombies *should* act. I enjoyed many of the Vahkos fights- radiating cold to do damage twice (an important concept in all Spidweb games) was nice, as was the chasing sequence in general, although being flooded by spectral warriors and avatars was a relative low point. I would have prefered more dialogue pics- especially ones for the two protagonists. Everything "clicked", except for some traps in the Selucia Sewers, which should have "clicked" only once.
Saying "I recommend that you play this scenario" is sorta silly, but if this was a scenario that wasn't pre-packaged with the editor, I'd probably still recommend it to a potential player, even if it isn't the best BoA will ever offer. (And let's not forget how grateful I am that Za-Khazi isn't the scenario all BoA players will finish before moving on to 3rd party ones...!)
7.6
EDIT: In retrospect, this entire scenario seems to be riddled with anti-Communist propaganda. I'd challenge you to find the bits and pieces, but that's like asking you play Where's Waldo when there's only one man on the page.
#6 Guest
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:36 AM
1 - A major point about this scenario is that for me it suffers the comparison with VoDT:
1.1 - The mood is much less efficient despite the good undead subject. In VoDT the mood is well build arround people pain and few mysteries. In DwtD there nothing equivalent, a little bit of mystery but I didn't felt the undead dark shadow above the area there was missing something. The only thing would be the dominant undead stuff all arround but that isn't enough story wise and it's a bit repetitive.
1.2 - The strong outdoor focus is much less efficient for me. In DwtD most things seems related strongly to main plot. That should be a good design base. In fact the links to main plot is too often it's an undead encounter, nothing more. That could be logical, anyway it fails build the story and even involves not enough pleasant surprise of disconvering and too much repetitions. Also it fails build the feeling of a real area because of not enough non undead events. In VoDT, there are many side quests or just discovery to do outdoor, many aren't directely linked to main plot but some are and their diversity build the feeling the that's a living area with fun to get from exploration and discovery. Plus those events/side quests that are linked to the main plot take their part in the story and has a much better link than the "it's undead" poor link of too many side events in DwtD.
2 - It's anyway a good scenario
Despite undead repeatition, the fighting diversity is ok. There's a also a good difficulty rising. The "open area" freedom is well managed versus the global plot. The global story is good I just felt it should deserve a better realisation.
3 - Better mood required
For me there was missing something to build better the mood. You arrive at a static state when undead already disaster plenty area but other area are under strong control of the empire. Then it mainly results to just discover empty houses and no npc really linked to that so emotion efficiency is weak. And on the other side, in area under control of empire, you mainly met people worry but too few really involved with past events.
I met two people that had lost relative, but for none of them I found information about them. This should have been used much more in order to build a strong mood. And some of these lost people should have been mostly impossible to not found in a state or another, cadaver with bye letter for his love, undead that still have few memory of his relative, a child just lost in wood, and so on and so on. A massive ammount of idea are possible arround this general idea and that would have help a lot to build a mood.
Another general idea to build a mood arround the theme should be to have a really noticeable evolution as the area states progress and not mainly only through one captain comments and few farms behavior. One trick to play arround that could have been a strong use of refugee. Like having refugee camp that later are removed. Or having refugee in town and later they leave to return back to their farm or other activities.
I know it's a lot of work but the subject choosed need it in order to get efficiency.
4 - Not enough events links
In general too many undead events occured without a real links to something else or main plot. This main plot should have progress through each different area found and for most encounters more story stuff and direct link to main plot would have improve a lot.
The hard stuff is managing the non linearity but well final results suffer of this lack.
5 - I could haven't been a good player in this scenario
Unlike the three previous scenario, there was at least three subquests I didn't solve, when they should have build story and improve mood. It could be because of some player tricks tougher to find than in previous scenario. Well it happens like that for me, I can't say more.
Rate 6.0
1.1 - The mood is much less efficient despite the good undead subject. In VoDT the mood is well build arround people pain and few mysteries. In DwtD there nothing equivalent, a little bit of mystery but I didn't felt the undead dark shadow above the area there was missing something. The only thing would be the dominant undead stuff all arround but that isn't enough story wise and it's a bit repetitive.
1.2 - The strong outdoor focus is much less efficient for me. In DwtD most things seems related strongly to main plot. That should be a good design base. In fact the links to main plot is too often it's an undead encounter, nothing more. That could be logical, anyway it fails build the story and even involves not enough pleasant surprise of disconvering and too much repetitions. Also it fails build the feeling of a real area because of not enough non undead events. In VoDT, there are many side quests or just discovery to do outdoor, many aren't directely linked to main plot but some are and their diversity build the feeling the that's a living area with fun to get from exploration and discovery. Plus those events/side quests that are linked to the main plot take their part in the story and has a much better link than the "it's undead" poor link of too many side events in DwtD.
2 - It's anyway a good scenario
Despite undead repeatition, the fighting diversity is ok. There's a also a good difficulty rising. The "open area" freedom is well managed versus the global plot. The global story is good I just felt it should deserve a better realisation.
3 - Better mood required
For me there was missing something to build better the mood. You arrive at a static state when undead already disaster plenty area but other area are under strong control of the empire. Then it mainly results to just discover empty houses and no npc really linked to that so emotion efficiency is weak. And on the other side, in area under control of empire, you mainly met people worry but too few really involved with past events.
I met two people that had lost relative, but for none of them I found information about them. This should have been used much more in order to build a strong mood. And some of these lost people should have been mostly impossible to not found in a state or another, cadaver with bye letter for his love, undead that still have few memory of his relative, a child just lost in wood, and so on and so on. A massive ammount of idea are possible arround this general idea and that would have help a lot to build a mood.
Another general idea to build a mood arround the theme should be to have a really noticeable evolution as the area states progress and not mainly only through one captain comments and few farms behavior. One trick to play arround that could have been a strong use of refugee. Like having refugee camp that later are removed. Or having refugee in town and later they leave to return back to their farm or other activities.
I know it's a lot of work but the subject choosed need it in order to get efficiency.
4 - Not enough events links
In general too many undead events occured without a real links to something else or main plot. This main plot should have progress through each different area found and for most encounters more story stuff and direct link to main plot would have improve a lot.
The hard stuff is managing the non linearity but well final results suffer of this lack.
5 - I could haven't been a good player in this scenario
Unlike the three previous scenario, there was at least three subquests I didn't solve, when they should have build story and improve mood. It could be because of some player tricks tougher to find than in previous scenario. Well it happens like that for me, I can't say more.
Rate 6.0
#7 miluk
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:37 AM
What, didn't I rate this yet?
I was disappointed with the ending. It seemed sort of unfinished, or stopped too early, leaving too many things open.
If my memory is correct, all the dungeons were more or less interesting, generally more than in A Small Rebellion.
(However, it's about a year since I played this, so I won't say anything more specific, because I may not remember correctly.)
8.0
I was disappointed with the ending. It seemed sort of unfinished, or stopped too early, leaving too many things open.
If my memory is correct, all the dungeons were more or less interesting, generally more than in A Small Rebellion.
(However, it's about a year since I played this, so I won't say anything more specific, because I may not remember correctly.)
8.0
#8 Guest
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:38 AM
I really disliked this scenario. There's nothing of substance in it other than a lame attempt at a plot twist. Lots of irritating combat. No actual characters. It just felt like JV decided that he ought to make a new scenario for BoA, and just banged this out without much actual interest in the scenario itself. Bleh.
5.5
5.5
#9 Thralni
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:38 AM
This is actually the only scenario of the four I really felt involved in the game. When talking to Vakhos in the spectral warrens was really the only moment in the entire game I actually started doubting whether to kill him or not. This was totally different in "A small rebellion" Where it actually seemed rather obvious for me to just kill the rebbels.
I give it an 8.0, albeit just for that one moment of doubt I felt.
I give it an 8.0, albeit just for that one moment of doubt I felt.
#10 Nioca
Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:38 AM
This scenario really isn't getting the credit it deserves. While I also found the twist predictable, I enjoyed the freedom of choice I had throughout the scenario. Multiple routes to the main dungeon, each with varying amounts of combat, a little bit of freedom with the twist, and a few side quests and joinable NPCs as well. The plot wasn't all that original or fresh, but it definitely wasn't stale or boring. Combat was excellent, far above the standards set by the other three pre-packaged scenarios, and I enjoyed playing through certain fights repeatedly. In fact, this was one of the very, very few scenarios that had a fight which I would reload just to play over again. The atmosphere could have been better, but it still worked. Plenty of good dialog, a good many secrets to find, and it looked nice too. Overall, an excellent scenario.
Final Score: 8.6
Final Score: 8.6
#12
Jewels
- Skribbane Smuggler
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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:30 AM
Enjoyable enough as long as you have high repel spirit. Some twists and turns and multiple endings. Technically sound.
7.5
7.5
Rubies are red,
Sapphires are blue,
But there's not a gem
That's as precious as you.
Sapphires are blue,
But there's not a gem
That's as precious as you.
#13
Lord Grimm
- I am the Very Model of a Modern Forum Spammer
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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:52 AM
Show up, get hired to stop massive numbers of undead, find out the guy who hired you is a poor but stubborn liar, run off to kill a vampire... and start getting lectured to by the vampire.
You really aren't paid enough for this.
The dungeon-delving motif in The Valley of Dying Things meets the political back-and-forth play of A Small Rebellion in a nice little story that spins off from a side quest in A3. There are a good deal of side quests, lots of areas to explore, and a good deal of loot to find, if you know how to look. Combat is balanced, the scenery is pretty.
Only thing it's really missing is a good in-game plotline. It's more just a series of encounters and choices.
If there is an intended process message, as TM suggests, it was lost on me.
Plot: 1.2/2
Gameplay: 1.6/2
Presentability: 1.3/2
Scripting: 1/2
Personal Entertainment: 1.3/2
Rating: 6.4 / 10
You really aren't paid enough for this.
The dungeon-delving motif in The Valley of Dying Things meets the political back-and-forth play of A Small Rebellion in a nice little story that spins off from a side quest in A3. There are a good deal of side quests, lots of areas to explore, and a good deal of loot to find, if you know how to look. Combat is balanced, the scenery is pretty.
Only thing it's really missing is a good in-game plotline. It's more just a series of encounters and choices.
If there is an intended process message, as TM suggests, it was lost on me.
Plot: 1.2/2
Gameplay: 1.6/2
Presentability: 1.3/2
Scripting: 1/2
Personal Entertainment: 1.3/2
Rating: 6.4 / 10
Memeres me, Cicere.
Things will be different when I rule the world.
Everything you Never Wanted to Know about My current Scenario Attempt.
Things will be different when I rule the world.
Everything you Never Wanted to Know about My current Scenario Attempt.
#14
Enraged Slith
- Ineffectual Mayor No. 352
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Posted 22 April 2009 - 05:51 AM
Way too many zombies. I'd really like to know where Vahkos found this massive trove of dead people to manipulate (assuming that's where the zombies came from). There needed to be more exposition on the plot and less killing of undead + random reward. It's been a while since I played, so I'm not really sure where the goblin massacre and small rebellion (hee) fit in.
7.0 because it's polished and worth a few playthroughs
There really aren't enough scenarios of this magnitude.
7.0 because it's polished and worth a few playthroughs
There really aren't enough scenarios of this magnitude.
#15
N-methyl D-aspartic acid
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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:25 AM
(As an aside, most of this scenario is inflated by its outdoors--it only has 12 towns.)
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